Curse

Ariena Najea · Jul 18, 2009, 06:42 PM // 18:42

I've been doing a lot of RA lately, and I can't but notice how absolutely worthless the Avatar skills are. Now, they're somewhat balanced by energy cost, duration, and narrow usage, as well as the obvious two minute effective recharge. So then, why are they so vulnerable so a single interrupt?

I've been playing a lot of Ranger and Mesmer lately, and it's just pitiful to see how easily these skills are shut down. Except for the popular but largely worthless Avatar, these are pretty balanced except for the activation time, so why is it there? These skills need to be instant activation, at least in PvP where Eternal Aura cannot be used, for them to be of any real use.

Dervishes are already weak in PvP, and are limited to using Reaper's Sweep, Wounding Strike, or Onslaught if they want to be of any use to their team. I know someone is going to bring up how "rigged" Avatar of Melandru builds are, but consider this. Any half-decent AoM bar is going to take full use of the condition immunity, and bring skills such as Wearying Strike, in order to maximize their effectiveness and be able to inflict Deep Wound without dealing with long recharge and high energy cost alternatives. So, they're pretty buff while AoM is up, but when it goes down, the player is limited in their usage. Now, is AoM is interrupted easily for the two-second activation it boasts, the Dervish loses the effectiveness of half their skill bar. Simply put, in the current system, Avatar builds are as fragile as a gimmick, yet do not provide sufficient advantages to merit usage. Also keep in mind that Assassins are better with Reaper's Sweep and Wounding Strike in terms of damage output anyways, so Dervishes have very little going for them.

Let the "are you insane?" comments begin.

IronSheik · Jul 18, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Only decent avatar in the arenas is Dwayna anyway.

You may as well remove activation for all elites, yes, it is the whole basis of the bar, which is bad in itself, but keep in mind of the huge effects these avatars hold: No conditions, +40 armor, +damage on skills, Remove Hex+Health, no, it can't be upkept all 120 seconds, but it can get around 2/3.

Avatars are worthless because it's Pvp, a lot of skills used in Pve just aren't good in pvp.

/notsigned

Xsiriss · Jul 18, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Maybe just make it uninterruptable,it needs a cast tiem as you're calling on a gods power...

TheodenKing · Jul 18, 2009, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Maybe just make it uninterruptable,it needs a cast tiem as you're calling on a gods power...

Or maybe the players need to be smart enough to put it up before the agro.

ajc2123 · Jul 18, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

Or maybe the players need to be smart enough to put it up before the agro.

Because all matches last EXACTLY the amount of time the avatar does.

/facepalm

I don't see it being a problem if they were buffed, or left alone. Still inferior to other skills imo, so I don't see why not.

/whynotsigned?

Daisuko · Jul 18, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

Or maybe the players need to be smart enough to put it up before the agro.

/agree. they have a 2 second casting time to give people a chance to interrupt them if someone is too dumb to not put it up outside of combat. You can't remove avatar effects in any way, so if you remove casting time from forms, you may as well remove the "disable this for 120 seconds" clause and add a "remove faith" skill (removes form)

Icy The Mage · Jul 18, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Pre-cast.

12chars

Tenebrae · Jul 18, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

Or maybe the players need to be smart enough to put it up before the agro.

Ding ding , and he wins the thread. GG on using an essential skill when you know you will be interrupted ....... ofc

/notsigned

MagmaRed · Jul 18, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Interrupts aren't TOO hard to avoid. As mentioned you can cast it outside of aggro of anyone who may have an interrupt ready to use. But you can also start and cancel the activation to trigger the interrupt and then use the skill when the interrupt has been used. If you are in the middle of a fight and want to use an Avatar form, either risk the interrupt, take a skill to prevent the interrupt, or move to a safe location to use the skill.

Don't see a reason they should be instant. If anything they would have at least a 1/4 second activation, but anything less than 1 second is overpowered, and even 1 second is pushing it for what they offer.

IronSheik · Jul 18, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Pious concentration is an imba anti-interrupt for derv, but as everyone else said, pre-cast

Or don't run melee in RA, especially a derv.

Ratson Itamar · Jul 18, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Call me sarcastic but I believe that there's a single, very simple answer to your question. The balance is screwed. Introducing a new viable feature to the game (moreover, used by a forgotten class) will cause more problems than Anet can handle.

That's why Ritualists, Assassins, Paragons and Dervishes aren't being reworked in PvP. Anet ignores the problem because they don't have the means to deal with it. It doesn't bother them as much as it should because most of the population is apparently cosisted of PvE players, where these classes just got a buff.

I think that the above proves my point, but I honestly don't really believe that many care. So don't expect any changes there.

Ariena Najea · Jul 18, 2009, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Only decent avatar in the arenas is Dwayna anyway.

You may as well remove activation for all elites, yes, it is the whole basis of the bar, which is bad in itself, but keep in mind of the huge effects these avatars hold: No conditions, +40 armor, +damage on skills, Remove Hex+Health, no, it can't be upkept all 120 seconds, but it can get around 2/3.

Avatars are worthless because it's Pvp, a lot of skills used in Pve just aren't good in pvp.

/notsigned

In response to the bolded:

Dwayna fares alright in Random Arenas for the same reason Defy Pain warriors "work". Great without a healer, but otherwise not that useful. Lyssa is great for the extra damage, particularly in D/A Dagger builds, and Melandru's is just all around good. Blind immunity AND spammable Deep Wound is good for a frontliner.

You clearly misunderstand my point in your second bolded statement. Sure, they are extremely powerful skills that are intended to have downtime, however, getting zero uptime due to a single competent Ranger on the other team is kind of lame. This hinders creativity and diversity in builds, which is simply a bad thing.

I'm not suggesting that every single skill be buffed to be effective in PvP, just some very important ones for a profession that has very few options due to a limited skillset. Read my comments on Wounding Strike, Reaper's Sweep, and Onslaught in my OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Maybe just make it uninterruptable,it needs a cast tiem as you're calling on a gods power...

This would be fine, except that Dervishes already suffer from activation time problems of other skills compared to other frontlines, since most useful IAS/IMS skills are enchantments (ie Heart of Fury and Onslaught) and between the casting time and aftercast, your foe has likely kited far away from you. This is an inherent problem with the Dervish's reliance upon enchantments, however, the avatar's activation time is an easily balanced fix, while reworking enchantments gets messy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

Or maybe the players need to be smart enough to put it up before the agro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive

Pre-cast.

12chars

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Ding ding , and he wins the thread. GG on using an essential skill when you know you will be interrupted ....... ofc

/notsigned

Terrific advice for the pre-battle phase. Now you're in the heat of the battle and it has just recharged, what then?

[QUOTE=MagmaRed;4752626]Interrupts aren't TOO hard to avoid. As mentioned you can cast it outside of aggro of anyone who may have an interrupt ready to use. But you can also start and cancel the activation to trigger the interrupt and then use the skill when the interrupt has been used. If you are in the middle of a fight and want to use an Avatar form, either risk the interrupt, take a skill to prevent the interrupt, or move to a safe location to use the skill./QUOTE]

The solution presents itself, or does it? Canceling the skill works fine for a number of skills in the game, but not the Avatars for a Dervish simply because most of them cost too much energy. Dervishes have a hard enough time taking care of their energy in the smaller formats, and already need to heavily rely upon skills like Attacker's Insight. Moving to a safe location doesn't really work in RA or TA, since there is little emphasis on tactical positioning, and the Ranger (Mesmers don't need sight) can just follow you around the corner. Furthermore, this takes you out of the fight, which means you aren't pressuring or spiking, so you're not doing your job.

Interrupt prevention skills are somewhat problematic for the Dervish. Mantra of Resolve is straight out, simply because of the energy cost between its activation and the penalty for being interrupted. Pious Concentration seems good at first, but as a Dervish for RA or TA, you need to be heavily relying upon your enchantments for your IAS and additional longevity, as well as other roles. Stripping these just costs more energy, and takes you out of the fight even longer while recasting key enchantments. The only skill I would consider using is Mantra of Concentration, but that requires a little speccing to be effective, can overwrite useful stances limiting your effectiveness until they are recharged, as well as dictating the player's secondary profession thus further limiting options.

I am surprised no one has mentioned blocking (for Ranger interrupts), but the only real options Dervishes have are bad and worse. Shield Bash is great, but its long recharge makes it less useful for the Dervish than a Monk for general use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Or don't run melee in RA, especially a derv.

This is part of the problem. There are not enough viable melee builds to counter the ridiculous anti-melee meta in RA right now. I don't think that every profession should be equally suited for each PvP format, however, blanket melee not being able to be useful is a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

Call me sarcastic but I believe that there's a single, very simple answer to your question. The balance is screwed. Introducing a new viable feature to the game (moreover, used by a forgotten class) will cause more problems than Anet can handle.

That's why Ritualists, Assassins, Paragons and Dervishes aren't being reworked in PvP. Anet ignores the problem because they don't have the means to deal with it. It doesn't bother them as much as it should because most of the population is apparently cosisted of PvE players, where these classes just got a buff.

I think that the above proves my point, but I honestly don't really believe that many care. So don't expect any changes there.

Obviously the balance is screwed. Apart from insane skill combinations, the fact that the game was never meant to be balanced for 4v4, and the fact that an A/D crit-scythe is better for nearly all situations, everything is fine. The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether changes should be made to these unbalanced professions, but rather what changes should be made if any changes are implemented. The reason ANet hasn't fixed rampant problems is simply because there are too many, and too few developers to come up with fixes and implement them. That is why Sardelac occasionally is useful, when threads result in good ideas ready for implementation from an unrefined idea with holes in it. Saying that no changes are going to made so stop caring doesn't help.

-----------------------------------

Dervish forms are the one thing they have going for them, as Ritualists have Spirits, etc. Otherwise, nearly everything they do is better done by someone else

Sniper22 · Jul 18, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

So we have to balance the game for RA? Um, what about attunements, you think those should be instant cast too? Dervs need a buff in many areas, but this is not it.

Regulus X · Jul 18, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

/notsigned because the recharge is 30 seconds only anyway, so unless it gets diversioned, the most that'll happen is you need to wait 30 seconds before retrying. Avatars having 1 second cast time or less is too good, bro.. soz. Be skillful and hide behind something before casting, or simply cast just outside of the rupter's range to commence whooping their booty.

IronSheik · Jul 18, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

You say dervishes are limited to only three elites, but aren't nearly all professions? It's the meta of PvP. You don't see a warrior running decapitate because it's just bad in mainstream Pvp, they themselves only have about 5 skills that are worth using in arenas. Just like avatars are bad, even with instant cast time, they're still not going to be better than wounding strike or reaper's.

Ariena Najea · Jul 18, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

So we have to balance the game for RA? Um, what about attunements, you think those should be instant cast too? Dervs need a buff in many areas, but this is not it.

I'm not suggesting we balance RA, GW2 would come first. As for Attunements, and other key skills, clearly you do not understand my points illustrated in my last post. Elementalists have an easier time of utilizing interrupt-preventing skills than Dervishes due to the way they use their energy. It's completely different, which is why you'll never see me advocating for such a ridiculous change. Consider the possibilities for Dervishes in PvP with this change, perhaps we'd even see Dervish flag runners with Avatar of Balthazar, who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

You say dervishes are limited to only three elites, but aren't nearly all professions? It's the meta of PvP. You don't see a warrior running decapitate because it's just bad in mainstream Pvp, they themselves only have about 5 skills that are worth using in arenas. Just like avatars are bad, even with instant cast time, they're still not going to be better than wounding strike or reaper's.

Depends how creative you are. Just because a build isn't on PvX or in the meta doesn't mean it isn't good. For example, I've been running different Melandru's Resilience Monk builds for years, and have even had success with it in TA. Standing in lava for energy management is strong. I've seen a couple Monk builds with Kinetic Armor, Boon Prots with Offering of Blood, even Shield of Judgment builds that work well when played right. I've also seen Warrior builds based on Rage of the Ntouka among other "worthless" elites, that far outclassed the meta warrior builds in our circumstances. Also, comparing Avatars to Wounding Strike in terms of which skill is "better" is ridiculous, they serve entirely different roles.

Be creative.

IronSheik · Jul 18, 2009, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I'm not saying they aren't good, It's RA, anything can be good. But you have to look at the basic thing the class is trying to do, damage? Unless you have a ele spamming meteor shower that dies to a lyssa dagger derv, it isn't the best to use.

I've made it to 34 wins using echo-imbue healer on a derv, but without hex remover, a standard WoH could've done it better most of the time.

I've used scavenger's focus as energy management in RA on a monk, anything can be good, doesn't mean it'll always out perform the meta

RedDog91 · Jul 18, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

The whole point of activation time is because certain skills are very "powerful". If you were to summon a meteor from the heavens, do you not think that would take some time to preform?

The point of making Avatars have activation time is to show the "dedication" dervishes have to worshipping the gods. Guild Wars is a game in all aspects, AreaNet wants to make the gameplay feel "real". If you were to take the form of a god in real life, do you think you would just do it instantly? I think it would take you some time to prepare that kind of power. As far as interupting it goes...to take the form of a god would take ALOT of concentration. In my opinion, Form Skills should be as easy to interupt as traps.

Tenebrae · Jul 18, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Terrific advice for the pre-battle phase. Now you're in the heat of the battle and it has just recharged, what then?

Are you serious ? do you really need someone to tell you how to make sure you dont get interrupted when you use a skill when you KNOW who is able to interrupt you ?. I really hope the answer is no ....

Ariena Najea · Jul 19, 2009, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

I'm not saying they aren't good, It's RA, anything can be good. But you have to look at the basic thing the class is trying to do, damage? Unless you have a ele spamming meteor shower that dies to a lyssa dagger derv, it isn't the best to use.

Dervishes are intended to be mainly physical damage dealers with a different sort of survivability than warriors, by utilizing enchantments and other skills instead of shouts and signets. Also, you'd be surprised at how much damage a D/A with AoL can do to Elementalists and Mesmers. Dual Striking during a spell is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

The whole point of activation time is because certain skills are very "powerful". If you were to summon a meteor from the heavens, do you not think that would take some time to preform?

The point of making Avatars have activation time is to show the "dedication" dervishes have to worshipping the gods. Guild Wars is a game in all aspects, AreaNet wants to make the gameplay feel "real". If you were to take the form of a god in real life, do you think you would just do it instantly? I think it would take you some time to prepare that kind of power. As far as interupting it goes...to take the form of a god would take ALOT of concentration. In my opinion, Form Skills should be as easy to interupt as traps.

I agree with you 100% on the notion that these skills require activation time to make sense within the context of the setting, however, gameplay is more important than setting for a game so heavily invested in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Are you serious ? do you really need someone to tell you how to make sure you dont get interrupted when you use a skill when you KNOW who is able to interrupt you ?. I really hope the answer is no ....

I have already covered this in previous posts, please read the entirety of the topic before posting...